All posts by listerlogic@hotmail.com

BURNING MAN; THE MOST UNUSUAL PLACE ON EARTH

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Every year on the first week of September, a barren area of desert about a 3 hour drive from Reno Nevada becomes a camping city of 70,000 people.  So unlike any other city in the world it can only be described as another dimension.

Like living in a Dr. Seuss book, burning man is a combination of Alice in Wonderland, Halloween, art, music and partying.  It’s a place where you are encouraged to express and be yourself without ridicule.   So bizarre, it stimulates the mind beyond social and cultural limits.   Most people that have heard of Burning Man but never been, know it only for the stigma of nudity and drugs attended only by hippies and freaks.  The fact is, “burners” the name given the people that attend, are in general, intelligent regular people that come for variety of reasons.   At my recent attendance in 2015, I was surprised to meet people from all over the world and all walks of life from teenagers, doctors and teachers to great grandparents.  Anyone with an open mind that attends is guaranteed a powerful,  personal experience that can’t fully be explained.  You don’t have to be an artist or consider yourself different to go.  You will however leave a different person.

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WHAT IS BURNING MAN?

A  circle with an area of 7 square miles is temporarily fenced off in the Red Rock Desert Playa.  The bottom half of the circle is the city complete with streets that quickly become lined with motorhomes and tents.  The other half of the circle is empty desert doted with scores of art displays, most of which are burned at some point during the week.  In the middle of the circle is the symbol of the event, a giant wooden man.  The highlight comes at the end of the week when the man is set on fire.

Aside from some basic rules for respecting other peoples rights and the environment almost anything goes.  If you don’t feel like wearing clothes or want to wear something you would never dream of wearing anywhere else, no problem.  Burning man is unconditional acceptance, and encourages you to discover and be your true self.  This is a place where people dress and act the way they feel and not to impress anyone else.

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The atmosphere inside Burning Man begins at the front gate.  People that have been before are warmly welcomed home.  For first timers or “virgins” as they are called there is an initiation, they are encouraged to get out of the car and asked to lye down and make snow angels on the ground.  The fine desert sand is ground into their clothes and deep in the pores of their skin.  The result is an immediate loss in the value for self looks, and a skin tone that soon matches that of the entire city.

Perhaps the biggest part of the atmosphere is that nothing is for sale, it can only be given away as a gift.   Ice and coffee, sold by the event organizers are the only exception.   I met one man that brought in $3,000.00 worth of soft drinks and water to give away in exchange only for conversation and the opportunity to meet other people.  Many people join one of  hundreds of theme camps that hosts a free activity or gives a product or service away for free.  Food,  alcohol, souvenirs, all free.  The giving and goodwill becomes contagious, creating a constant need for you to always look for ways to give back in return.  The friendly, excepting atmosphere created allows you drop your social guards, including some you never new you had.  Feeling as comfortable talking to complete strangers as you are with your closest friend.  A chance to totally be yourself with people that are totally being their self’s.

The harsh environment also brings the people together.  When going, you must bring everything you need for the week with you including water.  At night the temperature drops to the low teens and by 10:00am soars to over 100 degrees Celsius.  When the wind picks up sandstorms are created reducing visibility to near 0.  There are no showers or running water.  Washing in the morning and evening for me was with several wet naps.  After a few days dust had worked its way into my tent, sleeping bag and everything else that wasn’t sealed air tight.  It is these extreme conditions that help bond the city, similar to what happened during the ice storm in Quebec in 1999 or the more recent flooding in Calgary a couple of years ago.  There is something about going through hardship that unites people.

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Once parked at your campsite you can no longer drive your car until you leave.  Burning man is a city of bicycles and almost a necessity to get around.  The exception to driving rule is the hundreds of Mutant vehicles (art cars) that cruise up and down the streets and open areas.  Everything from a 50 foot yacht on wheels, complete with sound system, dance floor and bar, to a replica of Fred Flintstones car.  The Imagination and creativity in the art cars is a reflection of everything at Burning Man.IMG_2387

WHAT IS THERE TO DO?

WHAT ISN’T THERE TO DO?

When entering you are given a book listing over 1000 free activities and events put on by different theme camps.  Everything imaginable and a lot of things unimaginable.  From “The Naked Pub Crawl”, open to anyone, where thousands of people strip naked and travel around on bikes to different theme camp pubs, to viewing endless interactive works of art.  How about a game of pool on a giant pool table where billiard balls are substituted with bowling balls or shooting off a flame thrower.  Live DJs attract thousands of people in an area called the Deep End.  The list goes on and on making it impossible to see or do even a fraction of what’s available.  There is something for everyone and somethings definitely not for everyone.

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At night time the city lights up like Las Vegas and goes all night.  Mutant vehicles lit up and with powerful sound systems crisscross the open area amongst a sea of lighted bikes.

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Flames and fire shoot from some of the vehicles, another has a topless women hanging from a long pole extended out the back doing tricks on a trapeze.  Fire dancers and marching bands travel up and down the streets.  The art too is lit up, some with moving lights set to music.  In another area, an open steel frame dome that viewers climb on to watch 2 people battle it out on swinging harnesses with foam bats in a Mad Max type atmosphere.

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Despite all this Burning Man is a safe place.  All levels of US police patrol the event.  Most enjoy it and look forward to working it every year.  Burning man even has their own volunteer rangers that try to help out should there be a dispute.

ORIGIN

In 1986 Larry Harvey, Jerry James and a few friends got together on a beach in San Francisco on the summer solstice.  In a spontaneous act of self expression they set fire to a 9 foot wooden man they had put together.

The event continued every year, and continued to grow.  Eventually so many people showed up it had to be moved to the Black Rock Desert where it is held now.  Still based on 10 main principles it has grown into so much more, evolving every year it continues to take on it’s own form.  Run as a non profit organization, each year the 70,0000 tickets sell out in seconds.

SUM UP

Burning Man can best be described as a 7 square mile petri dish for the mind to grow.   As one person having attended over a dozen times in the past said “You don’t come here with expectations,  you just get out and wonder through the city and let it happen.  Every time you come it’s different experience.”

Still confused what Burning Man is all about after reading this?   You’re supposed to be.  Burning Man is different for everyone, and remains an enigma even for those that have been.  The potential for someone to learn and study unique human behavior is limitless here.

At the end of the week, the desert is restored to its natural barren condition.  No trace remains that  70,000 people had just been there or this portal to another dimension ever existed.

Dave Lister

Interstellar

listerlogic.com

IS OUR STANDARD OF LIVING ON THE BACKS OF THE LESS FORTUNATE?

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I had just unpacked after returning from a trip to a third world Country.  As the TV  played in the background I tried to comprehend what I had just experienced.  The poor living conditions, lack of food, opportunity, and health care, makeshift houses with dirt floors, it all seemed unfair just because they were born in a different place then me.  Somehow my focus shifted to the TV show being broadcast, it was a doggie fashion show from LA.  Dogs of the wealthy were in a competition, being walked down the runway dressed in designer outfits worth thousands of dollars and collars imbedded with precious stones and diamonds.  What I experienced at that moment was much harder to comprehend.

In Canada the cost alone of mailing a letter within our Country with Canada Post is $1.00.  For the same amount of money we can buy an item at a dollar store consisting of:

  • the cost of  dozens of individually manufactured parts
  • plus the cost of shipping of those parts to an assembly factory
  • plus the cost of assembling and packaging the final product for sale
  • plus  the cost of shipping that product from the other side of the globe to Canada
  • plus the cost of maintaining a retail business outlet and employees in Canada where the item is sold at $1.00 for a profit.

(Canada post reposted a 31 million dollar loss in the second quarter of 2015)

Whether it be companies moving to Mexico, outsourcing to India, or the estimated 170 million child labor’s working long hours in appalling conditions for our designer clothes, how can we justify taking advantage of these people to put diamond collars on our dogs.

Dave Lister

listerlogic.com

IS YOUR COGNITIVE THOUGHT INWARD OR OUTWARD FOCUSED?

Cognitive Thought 1

When asked to imagine what a brilliant scientist would be like, most people picture the common stereotype of an absent minded professor so caught up in thinking and thought he is totally oblivious of everything going on around him.  Could there be truth to the stereotype?

Also known as daydreamers,  it seems that the consciousness of some people is more inward focused on the thinking area of the brain than on the sensory input area of what is going on around them (outward focused).   We have all experienced short times when we are lost in thought and tuned out the world around us, similar to what happens when we get involved in reading a good book.  Why is it that some people are more prone to cognitively exist in this area of the brain?  Is the reason genetic?  Can it be learned or unlearned?

OUTWARD FOCUSED

When we are outward focused we are more aware of details of what is going on around us and less focused in the thinking area of the brain.Cognitive Thought 2

 
INWARD FOCUSED

When we are inward focused the things going on around us seem blurred and the thinking part of our brain is focused.Cognative Thought 3

If a mainly inward focused person can ignore the distraction of stimulus from the senses, can that add to better analytic abilities of the brain?  Not to say that people that inward focused are any more intelligent than outward focused people but could the combination of both inward focused and intelligent equal genius?

If cognitive consciousness can in fact be focused  in certain areas of the brain, what if it was focused in an area that wasn’t sensory or thinking?  Could that explain some causes of mental illness?

Dave Lister

listerlogic.com

BEYOND PHYSICAL LIMITS

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     As deep sleep transitions into a tranquil dream state, I have no idea I am not at home safe in my bed, but slumped, unconscious over the controls of a Russian fighter jet. I am in a steep dive approaching the sound barrier with only seconds left before impact with the ground

Three weeks earlier I was as unlikely as any  normal  Canadian of being in this predicament.  I am not in the military, I’m not even a licenced pilot.  Aside from an interest in travel and flying I was just a regular person with a regular job living in Toronto.  While planning a vacation with my wife to Moscow I came across an unusual Russian website.  It was at that point my regular life became something more.

     Fly Russian military jets no experience needed, the web site claimed, Includes transfer from your hotel in Moscow.  My fascination with flying has rewarded me with some time with an instructor behind the controls of a variety of aircraft, even aerobatics a couple of times, but nothing like this.

My excitement was short lived after finding people on the internet warning of scams and lost money on bank transfers to Russia.   I thought how stupid I was for almost falling for something so outrageous but my desire to believe would not be satisfied until I at least sent an email.  I will be coming to Moscow in 3 weeks, can I book and pay when I get there?  is all I wrote, not expecting a reply.  The next day I got an equally short email back. $800.00 USD cash and a Moscow phone number.

Before I knew it my wife and I  were near the end of our trip to Moscow.   We had visited all the main tourist sites and were left with a day and a half of free time before our flight home.  I had been thinking about the email a lot and even brought $800.00 in cash that I had stashed away in a suitcase.   No longer able to control my curiosity I dialed the number from the email.  A man with a thick Russian accent answered.  I explained who I was and asked if it was possible to fly tomorrow.   I was put on hold for several minutes before he finally came back on the phone.  “Yes, you can fly tomorrow” he said, “meet me in front of the Lenengrad Library in 2 hours with the money, I will be wearing a blue suit”.  I smiled as I hung the phone up, I felt like I was in a spy movie.  I had to at least check it out.

Sure enough when we got to the library a man in a blue suit was hanging out in front.  I approached him and introduced myself. “Follow me” he said as he began to walk away.  We walked a couple of blocks to a small cluttered office, filing cabinets, and papers piled everywhere.  Photos of Russian military jets plastered the walls.  “Did you bring the money?” he asked as he sat behind a cluttered desk.  If indeed it was a scam at least I knew where his office is so I set the cash on the desk.   After a short conversation he said “I will send a car to your hotel tomorrow at 8:00am”.

The next morning I gave my wife one last kiss goodbye and headed down to the hotel lobby at 7:45am.  The only car around was a black Mercedes with dark tinted windows.   As I walked up the driver rolled down his window a crack and said “Lister?”.  “Yes” I responded and climbed into the back seat.   “Where are we going” I asked.  “No English” he replied as he pulled away.

I watched through the window as we left the city and headed out into the country side.  My imagination ran wild, I started to think about where he might be taking me.  Unable to come up with a valid reason he might want to kill me, I convinced myself I was indeed going to fly a jet and tried to focus on my previous training and getting mentally prepared.

When flying acrobatics or anything that involves speed and change of direction, the invisible gravity like force felt is called G force.  I am cursed with getting severe motion sickness and remembered how debilitating the nausea from G force can be.  Nothing has helped in the past but this time I had taken a new prescription.

3 hours went by before we pulled off the main road and were soon at the security gate of a military airport.  A tense conversation in Russian persued between the driver and the guard.   Finally the gate  opened,  as we drove through I had the feeling this might not be legal.

I didn’t get much time to think about it before the car stopped in front of a 3 story office building.  I was taken inside to a classroom where 20 young Russian pilots in flight suits were in the middle of a lesson.  The instructor noticed me right away and seemed to stop mid sentence and dismissed his students.  I started thinking I was in over my head?  Could I be arrested?  Here I am standing inside a restricted military base somewhere in Russia about to fly off in a fighter jet all paid with cash I gave to a man I met on the street.  The instructor introduced himself and I forgot his name the second after he said it.

I was told to sit down at one of the desks and he explained what was going to happen.  “I will do each maneuver first to show you” he said “then you will repeat the maneuver”.  He went on to describe the maneuvers and I was able to relax a little.  My previous knowledge of flying enabled me to fill in the pieces lost in his English.

After an hour in the classroom I was given a flight suit and taken outside to the ejection simulator.  The simulator was a mock up of the cockpit of a jet.  The seat inside was hooked up to large compressed air tanks and attached to a long rail extending about 15 feet straight up.   I was strapped in tightly.  “When I give you the order, you pull the ejection handle” he said.  I remembered learning about this before.  It’s called “punching out” and for a good reason.   “Eject..Eject..Eject” he yelled and I pulled the handle. In one violent microsecond I was at the top of the rail.

With my body shaking from the human bullet ride and my brain swimming in new unprocessed information we headed to the tarmac.  Ten L-39 fighter jets in a row brought childhood memories of plastic models and pretending.  Today it’s for real.

Fighter number 3 was to be my ride.  I climbed up into the rear seat while my instructor climbed into the front and disappearing from view behind the high seat back.  My seat was a little higher then his so I had a good view forward.  As the ground crew strapped us in I tried to take in all the controls and gauges.  Everything was an exact duplication of what the instructor had up front.  He had emphasized in the classroom to keep clear of the stick and pedals when he was flying.

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Helmets on, it was time for a quick radio check, “David, can you hear me” he said. The volume of his voice so loud it felt like my ear drums had been stabbed. “Yes, I hear you” I replied .  The engines started and the clear canopy lowered and locked into position giving me a fishbowl view of the outside.  The ground crew cleared and  we taxied to the runway.  At the end of the runway we came to a stop and the engine was throttled up. The raw power began shaking the aircraft.  When the wheel brakes came off I became embedded in my seat from the acceleration and we were soon airborne.  “Are you OK?” he asked over the radio.  The noise of the engines was so loud the volume of the radio didn’t bother me anymore.  “Yes” I replied.

We reached cruising altitude quickly and were on route to an area 5 minutes away to do the maneuvers.  “You have the aircraft” he said over the radio.  This was it, my turn to fly.  I placed my feet on the rudder pedals and grabbed the control stick in a death grip with my right hand.  “I have the aircraft” I said proudly and he took his hands and feet off the controls.  Smooth flight came to an abrupt end as the aircraft rolled and pitched  from my constant over corrections.  Remembering what I had been taught, I took a deep breath and used just my thumb and index finger to hold the stick.  The aircraft began to settle down and by the time we got to the maneuvers area I was flying straight and level.

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“Good flying” said the instructors voice  over the radio, “Now give me the aircraft” his hands and feet now back on the controls.  “You have the aircraft” I replied letting him know I was clear.  “First we will do a loop” he said and pulled back on the stick while explaining what he was doing.  I felt the familiar feeling of the G force increasing and tensed all my muscles to fight it.  My body became heavy and my head was pushed down between my shoulder blades but something was different.  No motion sickness, I felt great. Half way through the loop, upside down, and hanging by the seat belts, for the first time I  was able to fully take in the experience without the overwhelming feeling of nausea.  Once level again it was my turn.  I was able to fly a perfect loop, at least in my opinion.  “Very good” he said over the radio.

Over the next 15 minutes crushing G force replaced gravity and the definition of up and down.  The ground rolled and spun around the aircraft, at times I would lose track of it then find it a moment later in a surprising direction and angle.  One by one I completed every maneuver becoming more aggressive and confident after each one.  I could wrestle the aircraft into doing just what I wanted it do. Confidence turned to over confidence.  I was indestructible.

“Good job, we are finished early” the instructor said “we have time for 1 more maneuver”.  I was exhausted, my flight suite soaked with sweat but I had to finish with something challenging.  How fast can I go? I thought.  “I’m going to do a loop again” I finally replied.

Starting with lots of altitude I did the first half of the loop as before but while upside down at the top I stayed parallel to the ground for a few moments to build up my air speed.  I reduced the throttle from full to two thirds as a token to the instructor that I knew I had to reduce thrust, and ever so slowly began pointing the jet towards the ground.  Speed and G force built rapidly.   I expected him to tell me to slow down but the radio remained silent.

Now three quarters of the way through the loop I was pointing straight at the ground, it was difficult to keep pulling up.  At 6Gs my body now weighed over 1000lbs. It felt like someone was standing on top of my head, the pours of my skin were bleeding sweat. Approaching 7Gs I realized that by combining gravity and thrust, I had created a monster.  Fear finally convinced me to cut the throttle back, but first, how fast am I going?  I glance down trying to locate the airspeed indicator and………………………

The symptoms before a High G blackout are loss of color vision and loss of peripheral vision.  I had neither.  My blood weighed so much it began to pool in my legs.  What was left was so heavy my heart could not pump to my brain and it turned off like a light switch.  I am in a death black place some where beyond dream state at the edge of nonexistence.  I have no thoughts, no memory and feel nothing.  Time stops.

As blood begins to slowly return to my brain I begin to exist again.  I find myself at the infancy of a dream in a peaceful place with a complete absence of light. The only thing with me is a faint far off noise.  As the dream progresses and the noise becomes louder, peace is gradually replaced with anxiety and the dream turns to a nightmare.  Slowly the nightmare turns real.  I desperately try to figure out what is happening to me but my memory only goes back to the beginning of the dream and the death black wall of nonexistence.  Again and again I franticly go over it, creating a memory trail between consciousness and nonexistence that I would be able to recall the rest of my life.

The noise is now deafening.  It feels like I’m in a train wreck, but I have no memory of getting on a train.  Completely awake now but still blind and confused I realize I am being crushed to death.  I have to fight back now or die.  With every ounce of life I push out with my arms and legs against the crushing force.

Suddenly my full vision returns and with it my memory is instantly restored.  The crushing feeling is gone.  Wings level, the bright sun providing a heavenly view of the detailed country side below me. In an instant I had gone from  confusion, darkness and dying to peace, light and beauty.   At the same time my vision came back what was just noise before suddenly had depth and pitch.  “David!…………David!…………David!” my instructor was yelling in the radio.  “I’m OK” I replied.  I knew I had blacked out from the G force, luckily my instructor had stayed conscious and pulled out of the dive before we hit the ground.

My arm was still extended from seconds ago when I thought I was fighting for my life, my hand was on the ejection handle an inch away from firing both of us out into limb tearing wind speeds.  My feet had come off the rudder pedals and had been pushing against the floor.  Had they been still on the pedals I could have created another monster that even a military instructor couldn’t defeat.

On the short flight back to base there was an awkward radio silence.  Neither one of us would talk about what just happened.  I thought about how lucky I was not only to be alive but for the unique experiences giving me an extraordinary insight of life and the danger and thrill of being a test pilot.

Dave Lister

listerlogic.com

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THE UNIVERSAL PHILOSOPHY OF LIFE

FINAL UNIVERSE

“Why are we here and what happens after we die?” is a question pondered by man for hundreds of thousands of years.  Moving into the 21st century, science is still no closer to an answer.  What is the purpose of life, is there life after death, reincarnation or do we just cease to be?  Most people seek religion for answers but for those unable to answer such an important question with a belief, can faithless philosophies give structure, purpose and an explanation to our life’s we so desperately need?

WHAT WE DO KNOW

We do know that everyone exhibits their own personality from birth. That personality could be any part of genetics, our experience in the womb before birth, or if there is such a thing, our existence before conception.

From the moment of birth what we experience and learn defines who we become and how we behave.  Even experiences that can’t be recalled cognitively end up deep rooted in our subconscious and effect who we are.  If there is an afterlife then the effects of what we  experienced in life not only become part of us, but part of our soul.  Could, to learn and experience  things in life be why we are here?  If so even bad experiences as tough as they are to go through could be looked at afterward as being positive in a way that helps us understand and develop.

Most religions teach us to have good values, and ethics.  Wouldn’t it be better if we did this not out of fear, or promise of rewards in an afterlife but because what we learned and experienced made us the kind of person that wants to.

THE UNIVERSAL PHILOSOPHY

My philosophy is simple and designed to give purpose and meaning to life with or without a spiritual outcome.

Imagine an empty circle.  The outline of the circle represents you at conception and is made up of genetics,  and if there is such a thing, our existence before conception and previous incarnations.  The purpose in life is to learn and fill the circle with as many experiences as you can.

Should there be an afterlife the circle represents your soul.  If you are doing a good job filling the circle you can take comfort that you are most likely living your life in a way that follows the teachings of any respectful God.

If after death we simply cease to exist, the circle represents your brain.  In this unfavorable outcome you can still take comfort in knowing that you are living your “one life” in an ethical way and to it’s full potential.

Either way,  What a full and satisfying life you will have!

Dave Lister

listerlogic.com

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS #1

HOW DOES THE PHILOSOPHY GIVE PURPOSE AND MEANING TO LIFE?

Constantly seeking new experiences that will be part of you for eternity gives both purpose and meaning to life.  The more you learn and experience, the closer you will be to understanding yourself and life.  It provides incentive for you to do more with your life, encouraging you out of your comfort zone and challenging you to achieve things you never thought possible.

The broader the range of experiences you have, the equally broader your perspective on life becomes.   Because new experiences are infinite there is always something  different to see or do no matter who you are or how old.

HOW DOES THE PHILOSOPHY APPLY TO EVERYONE?

The philosophy can apply to everyone and be followed by anyone able to comprehend it.  Someone, for interest who has a mental illness may be limited as to what they can do and experience.  But the illness also gives them an extremely unique experience and perspective of life the rest of us could never fully understand.  No matter who you are, in most cases everyone is able to do and learn more.

Who knows, should reincarnation exist, the purpose of it may be to provide us with these unique experiences and perspectives.

DO EXPERIENCES EFFECT MORALS AND VALUES?

At a formal fund raising dinner, 3 people all of whom currently have the same financial status were asked to donate to help starving children in a foreign country.  Who do you think would typically donate the most?

  • Person 1 that had never been to a poor country
  • Person 2 that had visited a third world country and worked with orphan children
  • Person 3 that had come from a poor country and was once a starving child.

Although Person 3 has gone through the tragic experience of starving when a child, it has enabled them to truly understand the need.  Because of this intimate understanding  Person 3 is most likely to give the most followed by person 2.

In religions that believe we are judged in the afterlife by things like generosity, person 3 would most likely be better judged only because of an experience the other 2 didn’t have.

Like the example above the more things in life we can truly understand through experiencing them the more likely we are to naturally live a moral and understanding life.  Even person 2, having experienced travelling to a 3rd world country to help children would have a much better understanding of the need then someone that’s never left the country.  Without experience we are partially blind to the effects we have on the people around us for our every day actions or inactions.

Just imagine if everyone in the world could totally understood what every one else was experiencing and how they felt.  We could create a society that is fair to everyone and have world peace.

HOW DO OUR PREVIOUS EXPERIENCES GIVE US A UNIQUE PRESTECTIVE?

A family of 4 traveling down the highway in a car skid out of control on some snow.  The father driving has never been in an accident, with years of winter driving experience he feels mild nervous tension but confident he will have it under control shortly.  The Mother in the passenger seat had been seriously injured in a traffic accident 2 years ago and experiences extreme fear.  In the back seat their 10 year old son who has never been in a skidding car or an accident compares it to a amusement park ride and experiences a thrilling excitement.  Their 1 year old baby doesn’t understand what’s going on and has no change in mood.

Even though all four members of the family have gone through the same event, depending on their previous experience, they all experienced it differently. The same variation of views apply to everything in our lives whether it be morals, politics or a skidding car.  With an open mind the more things we have experienced in the past, the better our understanding will be of new ones.

WHAT ABOUT EXPERIENCES WE FORGET?

Although we may not be able to recall it cognitively, evidence shows any significant experience we’ve had remains in our subconscious and stays a part of how we act and who we are. With all the physiatrists in the world treating people for problems stemming from some experience they had in the past and could no longer recall, its reasonable to believe we never actually forget the effects of any experience.

Dave Lister

listerlogic.com